And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. General Discussion (Forum) Main. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. They point us to Jesus Christ. Make an Appointment Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. No, it doesnt. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). How do we know this from the New Testament? Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. . In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. Enough Jews were reading the deuterocanonical books that a leading rabbi at the time had to declare that they were not Scripture. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Yeah, sure. Do you still have it? Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Okay. That she was conceived without original sin? Thats good for me too. So our listeners can go there to read that. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . I dont think he could do that. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. But that is simply not the case. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. This is fantastic. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. Thats right. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. So it still fits semantically. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. Sure. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. It would always demand that. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. Thank you very much, Steve. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Its free to watch the podcast. Okay. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Yep. Jesus does not rebuke her. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. 15. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Steven Christie Founder & Director / Support Coordinator / Specialist Support Coordinator / Psychosocial Recovery coach at Support Base Bendigo, Victoria, Australia 1K followers 500+ connections. GANYARD: It sure is, George. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. So lets just stick to scripture. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. I dont know if I would. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Well, not necessarily. He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. Im not alone in believing this. I think a lot of people have this question, both Catholics and Protestants. If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. I think thats really terrific. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. Okay. Yes. In that respect Marys Magnificat parallels Hannahs song in 1 Samuel. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. . Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Thank you very much, Trent. I mean, you got me on the spot. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. All right. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. Please try again later. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. . He says, this is a question for Steve. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says.
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